Original message
Shaan 18-Feb-01, 07:13 PM (GMT)


Even today the conflict between the Shia and the Sunni Muslims still exists regarding the leadership after the Holy Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.)

Why has this difference existed for such a long time especially when Allah s.w.t has clearly said: "The truth stands clear from error" (2:256)?

If the truth really does stand clear from error then surely both the Shia's and the Sunni's must be able to recognise it unless one is in such depths of darkness that the light of truth is very difficult to reach.

The Shia's maintain that the Holy Prophet selected Imam Ali for the post of leadership for he was the best candidate to deserve it.

The Sunni's argue that the right to choose the 'leader of Muslimeen' belongs to the ummah and the Holy Prophet left the matter in the hands of the companions who then chose Abu bakr r.a for the post of leadership.

Now how will the problem be solved?

Both the Shia's and the Sunni's boast that Islam is the only religion on the face of the earth that has solutions to all the existing and the future problems but its pity one has turned away from the teachings of it and has silently sat in the darkness of misguidance by following other than the teachings of Islam.

Allah provides a solution: "…If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination." (4;59)

Both schools of thought accept that the best way to end a dispute is by referring it to the Holy Quran and Hadiths of the Holy Prophet (S.A.W) and that is exactly what Islam prescribes.

Now should the Muslims discuss and accept that which is most authentic or should they leave the problem as it is and unite on error?

Allah says: "By (the Token of) Time (through the ages), Verily Man is in loss, Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy." (Chap: 103 v 1-2-3)

Islam recommends us to join together and exalt one another to the "Truth" only then one will become aware of the beliefs of others and by faithfully comparing them to the Quran and Hadiths one will recognise as to who really is following the teachings of Islam and one must forget not the saying: "Listening to one sided beliefs is not educating yourselves it's indoctrinating yourselves"
So, in order for the sake of unity,(even though it is not possible) a Muslim has to give up what contradicts the Holy Quran and Sunnah to show his/her loyalty to the commands of Allah and then submit to Allah's will which is to 'hold tight to the rope of Allah and not be disunited amongst us'

To end the Shia v Sunni conflict we have to ask the Holy Quran some questions regarding the 'leadership' as to who are those capable of Ruling and what are the qualifications for a ruler.

That is way my topic is called: "Who deserves to be followed?"

So what does the Holy Quran say about it?

The Holy Quran: Their Prophet said to them: "Allah hath appointed Talut as king over you." They said: "How can he exercise authority over us when we are better fitted than he to exercise authority, and he is not even gifted, with wealth in abundance?" He said: "Allah hath Chosen him above you, and hath gifted him abundantly with knowledge and bodily prowess: Allah Granteth His authority to whom He pleaseth. Allah careth for all, and He knoweth all things."(2:247)

# The above verse shines its answer to those who are unaware of the qualifications of a ruler who exercises authority over others.

#The verse shows that even the Prophets are not allowed to choose a leader for Allah's creation but Allah Himself appoints one according to his merits and virtues.

# The reply given to the people who thought that wealth is a condition for being a ruler was to show that Allah prefers a 'learned person over the ignorant' and 'not a wealthy over the knowledgeable' and no matter how rich a person is, the wealth will never be condition for the leadership.

#The wording "Allah hath Chosen him above you" shows that the superiority given to Talut a.s was because of his knowledge and bodily prowess.

# And finally the verse also declares that Allah grants His Authority to whom He pleases and the people have no right to indulge in this matter or to grant authority over themselves to the one who was not chosen by Allah Himself.

The Holy Quran also contains another very interesting verse from Chapter Yunus:

"…Is then He Who gives guidance to truth more worthy to be followed, or he who finds not guidance (himself) unless he is guided? what then is the matter with you? How judge ye?" (10:35)

# This verse is a leading question, the reply to which could be nothing but one, i.e., "Only those who are self guided by the divine guidance bestowed upon them, and who need not any guidance whatsoever from anybody else, and are themselves on the right path, deserve to be followed and not anyone else."
# Out of the two the one who has the capability of guiding to the truth deserves to be followed not the one who depends on others for guidance.

# Without the knowledge one cannot be a guide, hence the one with most knowledge is worthy of being followed over the one with less experience and Ilm.

# No sane person can accept that Allah prefers a ignorant person over the learned, it is totally against Allah's laws and LOGIC. The simple reason indicates that the two are not equal: "Are those who know and those who know not alike?"

It all comes down to knowledge again which means that one of the most important qualities that a leader should have in himself is the quality of 'knowledge'.

Prophet Ibraheem (A.S) advances the same argument, informing his father to follow him because of the knowledge granted to him.

"O my father! to me hath come knowledge which hath not reached thee: so follow me: I will guide thee to a way that is even and straight." (19;43)

There are many verses in the Holy Quran which give light to the fact that it is the most learned who deserves to be followed.

Truthfulness, piety, justness, etc, are also some of the qualities laid by Islam which a leader of the Muslimeen 'must' also have for his post and these qualities cannot be denied by anyone except the insane.

So according to the conditions laid down by Islam, the very 'truthful' the 'pious' the most 'knowledgeable' and the most 'just' person deserves the right to the leadership in ISLAM.

To come to a conclusion one has to force himself to the comparative study between Hadhrat 'Abu Bakr r.a and Imam 'Ali ibn Abu Talib' a.s

Some the following questions have to be dealt with in order to arrive at a safe conclusion:

(1)Who was the most knowledgeable amongst the two regarding the teachings of Islam?

(2)Who knew the true teachings of the Holy Quran and fully understood its true internal and external meanings?

(3)Who was well informed about the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet?

(4)Who was the best judge amongst them?

(5)Who was the most pious amongst the two

(6) Who was the most truthful among the two?

The majority of the Muslims believe that Imam Ali was the most knowledgeable person after the Holy Prophet (S.A.W) who also possessed other merits and virtues and there are those who are inflicted with unfaithfulness who reject to this established fact.

However the Shia's are ready to challenge the deniers of the truth and can prove that it was Imam Ali ibn Abi talib a.s who was the most knowledgeable person to exist after the Holy Prophet (S.A.W) with all other requirements that are need in a good leader of the Muslims.

There are many traditions handed down to the muslims but how many of them declare that Abu bakr r.a was one of the most learned amongst the companions of the Holy Prophet whose knowledge matched the knowledge of Imam Ali a.s?

There are many narrations which loudly express that after the Holy Prophet, Imam Ali had the most knowledge:

The Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) said: "I am the City of Knowledge, and Ali is its Gate. So whoever intends to enter the City and the Wisdom, he should enter from its Gate."

(1)al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, pp 126-127,226, Chapter of the Virtues of Ali, narrated on the authority of two reliable reporters: one, Ibn Abbas, whose report has been transmitted through two different but chain of authorities, and the other, Jabir Ibn Abdullah al-Ansari. He said this tradition is Authentic (Sahih).

(2) Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, pp 201,637

(3)Fadha'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p635, Tradition #1081

In addition to that, al-Tirmidhi also recorded that:

The Messenger of Allah said: "I am the House of Wisdom and Ali is it's door."

Sunni references:
(0) Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, pp 201,637
(0) Ibn Jarir al-Tabari recorder this tradition and wrote: "We believe this tradition to be genuine and authentic." (as quoted by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi in Kanz al-Ummal, v6, p401)

The Holy Prophet also said: "`Ali is the gateway of my knowledge, the one who is to explain to my nation after me what I have been sent with; loving him is a mark of genuine faith, and hating him is hypocrisy."

Ref: al-Daylami from Abu Tharr's hadith as stated on page 156, Vol. 6, of Kanz al-`Ummal
The Holy Prophet said to Imam Ali: "You shall clarify to my nation all matters wherein they differ."

Ref: al-Hakim on page 122, Vol. 3, of his Mustadrak as reported by Anas. The author then comments: "This is an authentic hadith according to the endorsement of both Shaykhs , although they did not quote it themselves."

The Holy Prophet (S.A.W) also made clear when he said to Imam Ali: "O `Ali! You possess seven qualities about which nobody can dispute with you: You are the first to truly believe in Allah, the most just in fulfilling Allah's Promise, the most obedient to Allah's Commandments, the most compassionate to the public, the most informed of all issues, and the highest among them in status."

Ref: kanzul amaal Vol 6 p156

The Messenger said to his daughter Fatimah al-Zahra (AS): "Would it not please you that I have married you to the first Muslim in my nation, their 'most knowledgeable', and their greatest in Wisdom."

Sunni reference: Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v3, p136; v5, p26

Similarly, Barida narrated: The messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) said to Fatimah (AS) that: "I gave you in marriage to the best in my Ummah, the most knowledgeable in them, the best in patience in them, and the first Muslim among them."

Sunni reference: Kanz al-Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, p398

Ibn Mas'ud said: "The Holy Quran has outward and inward meanings, and Ali Ibn Abi Talib has the knowledge of both."

Sunni references: Hilyatul Awliyaa, by Abu Nu'aym, v1, p65

Much of the knowledge of the Prophet was transferred to Imam Ali (AS) when the Prophet was taking his last breath:

Imam Ali said: "The Messenger of Allah at that time (before his last breath) taught me a thousand chapters of knowledge, every one of which opened for me one thousand other chapters."

Sunni references:

(1)Kanz al-Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v1, p392
(2)Hilyatul Awliyaa, by al-Hafidh Abu Nu'aym
(3)Nuskhatah, by Abu Ahmad al-Faradi

Furthermore, Imam Ali (AS) once said: "By Allah, I am the Brother of the Messenger of Allah and his friend and his cousin and the inheritor of his knowledge. Who has a better title for succeeding him than me?

Sunni references:
(1)al-Khasa'is al-Alawiyyah, al-Nisa'i
(2)al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim v3, p112
(3)al-Dhahabi in his Talkhis of al-Mustadrak has admitted the above words to be genuine.
(4)Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v5, p40

Also Imam Ali (AS) himself frequently stated in his sermons: "Ask me before you lose me. By Allah, if you ask me about anything that could happen up to the Day of Judgment, I will tell you about it. Ask me, for, by Allah, you will not be able to ask me a question about anything without my informing you. Ask me about the Book of Allah, for by Allah, there is no verse about which I do not know whether it was sent down at night or during the day, or whether it was revealed on a plain or in a mountain."

Sunni refs:
(1) al-Isabah, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v4, p568
(1) Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v7, pp 337-338
(1) Tarikh al-Khulafaa, by al-Suyuti, p124
(1) at-Tabaqat, by Ibn Sa'd, v2, Part 2, p101

Sa'id Ibn Musayyib as well as Umar Ibn al-Khattab said: "No companion of the Prophet ever said 'Ask me' except Ali."

Sunni References:
(1)Fadha'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p647, Tradition #1098
(2)al-Isabah, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v2, p509
(1) Tarikh al-Khulafaa, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, p171
(1) al-Tabaqat, by Ibn Sa'd, v2, p338

There are many more narrations to the same effect which declare that it was none other than Imam Ali ibn Abi talib a.s who held the highest knowledge after the Seal of the Prophets (S.A.W).

# Imam Ali's piety none can deny
# Concerning his truthfulness it is well known
# His justice, well its narrated by Abu Bakr that the Holy Prophet said: "My hand and `Ali's are equal when it comes to justice." This is hadith 2539 recorded on page 153, Vol. 6, of Kanz al-`Ummal.
# Regarding his judgements: Ibn Mas'ud said: "We were talking that the most trustful referee/Judge in Medina to solve the problems was Ali."

Ref: Tarikh al-Kabir, by al-Bukhari (the author of Sahih), v1, part 2, p6
Fadha'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p646, Tradition #1097
al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v2, p352

It is well know amongst the historians that many times Abu Bakr and Hadhrat Umar r.a sought help from Imam Ali and to this effect hadrat Umar many times expressed: "Had it not been for Ali Umar would have been perished"

Sunni references:
# Fadha'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p647, Tradition #1100
# al-Isti'ab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, v3, p39
# al-Tabaqat, by Ibn Sa'd, v2, p338


The authority to rule over mankind is vested in the person who can guide the people to the truth and not in the person or person's who know not the right from wrong unless guided by somebody else, and to this effect the Sixth Holy Imam, Jaffar ibne Muhammad as- Sadiq (A.S) in refuting the theory (Khilafat should be decided by the people) narrated from his father the Fifth Holy Imam Muhammad ibne Ali al-Baqir(A.S)…from the Holy Prophet, that he said: "Whoever drew the sword and called people to himself to obey him while among the Muslims there is a person more learned than him, then he is a straying imposter"



 Table of contents


 RE: WHO DERSERVES TO BE FOLLOWED?, Abu Umar, 18-Feb-01, (1)
RE: WHO DERSERVES TO BE FOLLOWED?, Shaan, 01-Mar-01, (3)
 RE: WHO DERSERVES TO BE FOLLOWED?, Abu Umar, 02-Mar-01, (5)
 RE: WHO DERSERVES TO BE FOLLOWED?, Shaan, 04-Mar-01, (7)
 RE: WHO DERSERVES TO BE FOLLOWED?, Musa, 19-Feb-01, (2)
RE: WHO DERSERVES TO BE FOLLOWED?, Shaan, 01-Mar-01, (4)
 RE: WHO DERSERVES TO BE FOLLOWED?, Shaan, 04-Mar-01, (8)
Messages in this topic
Abu Umar 18-Feb-01, 10:46 PM (GMT)

audhu billahi mina Shaytan ir Rajeem

bismillah Ir Rahman ir Rahim

May I ask?? Why do the jaffari ´shia clap their hands on their laps in the last part of salah??

and what are they saying??

ma salam ¨¨
abu umar

Shaan 01-Mar-01, 01:36 PM (GMT)

Abu Umar

The Shia's do not clap their hands, they finish of their prayers with 3 taqbirs while raising their hands up to their shoulders (rafaiyadian)and not turning thier faces away from the kaba while the sunnis turn their faces away from the kaba before the salaah ends.

Abu Umar 02-Mar-01, 09:56 AM (GMT)

Audhu billahi mina shaytan ir Rajeem'¨
bismillah ir Rahman ir Raheem

That was what I ment.

Where do you get this, I have never read it in any hadith?

Characteristics of Prayer -
Narrated Anas bin Malik Al-Ansari:

Allah's Apostle rode a horse and fell down and the right side of his body was injured. On that day he prayed one of the prayers sitting and we also prayed behind him sitting. When the Prophet finished the prayer with Taslim, he said, "The Imam is to be followed and if he prays standing then pray standing, and bow when he bows, and raise your heads when he raises his head; prostrate when he prostrates; and if he says "Sami'a-l-lahu Liman hamida", you should say, "Rabbana wa-laka-l hamd.

So what are you saying while doing this???
Taslim- to greet with peace, as asalaamun alaykum.

Shaan 04-Mar-01, 09:47 AM (GMT)

>Audhu billahi mina shaytan ir Rajeem'¨
>bismillah ir Rahman ir Raheem
>That was what I ment.
>Where do you get this, I
>have never read it in
>any hadith?
>Characteristics of Prayer -
>Narrated Anas bin Malik Al-Ansari:
>Allah's Apostle rode a horse and
>fell down and the right
>side of his body was
>injured. On that day he
>prayed one of the prayers
>sitting and we also prayed
>behind him sitting. When the
>Prophet finished the prayer with
>Taslim, he said, "The Imam
>is to be followed and
>if he prays standing then
>pray standing, and bow when
>he bows, and raise your
>heads when he raises his
>head; prostrate when he prostrates;
>and if he says "Sami'a-l-lahu
>Liman hamida", you should say,
>"Rabbana wa-laka-l hamd.
>So what are you saying while
>doing this???
>Taslim- to greet with peace, as
>asalaamun alaykum.

BROTHER ABU UMAR, please check out the following narrations found in your Sahih's, on rafaiyadain:

SUNAN ABU DAWOOD: Book 3, Number 0737:

Narrated AbuHurayrah:

"When the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) uttered the takbir (Allah is most great) for prayer (in the beginning), he raised his hands opposite to his shoulders; and when he bowed, he did like that; and when he raised his head to prostrate, he did like that; and when he got up at the end of two rak'ahs, he did like that."

Book 3, Number 0752:

Narrated AbuHurayrah: "When the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) began his prayer, he raised his hands extensively."

Book 3, Number 0738:

Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: "Maymun al-Makki said: that he saw Abdullah ibn az-Zubayr leading in prayer. He pointed with his hands (i.e. raised his hands opposite to the shoulders) when he stood up, when he bowed and when he prostrated, and when he got up after prostration, he pointed with his hands (i.e. raised his hands).

The I went to Ibn Abbas and said (to him) I saw Ibn az-Zubayr praying that I never saw anyone praying. I then told him about the pointing with his hands (raising his hands). He said: If you like to see the prayer of the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) follower the prayer as offered by Abdullah ibn az-Zubayr.

I hope you get the point.



Musa 19-Feb-01, 07:53 AM (GMT)

There is a lot more to it why Abu baker (a.s)was elected to be the successor of Muhammed(s.a.w).Due to the fact that it is past tense,its going against Allah will ,because its in the past. The Sahabas (a.s) was much more knowledgable, and they seem to have had no problems with the decision,and they still was united. The prophet said my ummah will not unit based upon a error.

Shaan 01-Mar-01, 02:54 PM (GMT)

>There is a lot more to
>it why Abu baker (a.s)was
>elected to be the successor
>of Muhammed(s.a.w).

Firstly, why the elections when the Holy Prophet himself gave the position of ruling to Imam Ali a.s at al-ghadeer infront of 120,000 followers of his?

And what alot more is there to the elections of abu bakr?

Due to the fact
>that it is past tense,its
>going against Allah will ,because
>its in the past.

Sorry I cant understand the above, what are you trying to say? I hope you will escuse my ignorance.

The Sahabas(a.s)
>was much more knowledgable,

brother by saying that the sahabas were much more knowledgeable, what do you intend to prove?

There was none amongst the companions more qualified and learned than Imam Ali, then why use arguments based upon assumption rather than evidence?

and they
>seem to have had no
>problems with the decision,and they
>still was united.

According to you there were no problems but according to hadhrat Umar:

"It was an accident that Abu Bakr became leader. No consultation or exchange of views took place. If anyone in future invites you to do the same again, kill him."

Ibn Hisham, al-Sirah, Vol. IV, p.308.
See also Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 8.817

Now who do I believe, you or Umar?

The prophet said
>my ummah will not unit
>based upon a error.

Yes the ummah has not united on error thats why we shia's reject the caliphate of Abu bakr, hadhrat Umar...had we joined upon what the majority have accepted then we would have united on error but as far as we are concerned we will following that agrees with the Quran and Sunnah and will reject what diagrees with it.




HUSSAIN1a 03-Mar-01, 07:17 AM (GMT)

Hadrat Ali (R.A.) was not a Shia. That is a undisputable fact - he lived under the Caliphah of Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman (R.A.). Don't tell me some baseless knowledge that you know better, quoting some saying I've never heard of. For every one you produce, I can happily produce Hadrat Ali's own sayings about Abu Bakr and Umar (R.A.).

In fact Hadrat Ali (R.A.) was a Sunni - in the literal sense. As you say in your own words, he followed Allah (S.W.T)'s commands under the teachings of the Prophet (PBUH) - a Sunni!!!

The answer is there - so simple, if only you could face the simple truth.

I have heard nonsense insults from Shia scholars about how Hadrat Ali (R.A.) was dragged into giving the Bayat to Hadrat Abu Bakr (R.A.). Rubbish, total rubbish - and a total insult to Hadrat Ali (R.A.), one of the greatest muslims of all time, who had such incredible strenght that he brought down big, big enemies of falsehood. How would he accept false Caliphs when he had spent the best part of his life getting rid of jahiliyah.

You quote mis-interperated sayings, I quote historical fact. Regarding some of the Companions that you insult. Do you know that it was the companions that dreamt the Adhan, and this was then confirmed by the Prophet. The Adhan, some of the most beautiful words in this world which bring all Muslims (Shia and Sunni) to prayer and you claim that these very people who Allah gave the dream of the Adhan immediately went astray. How ridiculous is your accusation - think and wonder what you will say to Allah about these false accusations on the Day of Judgement.

I am happy to get into a Hadith exchange with Shia's to demonstrate the points, but without sincerity that tends to lead nowhere.

I make Du'a that Shia's can come to terms with their own falsehood. I have seen the First Kalimah doctered in Shia households, by adding reference to Ali (R.A.) after the words La-illah-hah-illalah-Mohmanned-rasulullah. What will these Shia's say to Allah on the Day of Judgement about playing with Allah's words?

End the debate, it is pointless. Fear Allah and pray for his mercy so we may all enter Paradise.




Shaan 04-Mar-01, 11:40 AM (GMT)

>Hadrat Ali (R.A.) was not a
>Shia. That is a
>undisputable fact -

When did the Shia's claim that Imam Ali was a shia?

Are gifted with revelations or is it your hobby to fabricate and blame others for the wrong they havent done?

he lived
>under the Caliphah of Abu
>Bakr, Umar and Uthman (R.A.).

Living under them does not prove that they were the ligitimate successors of the Holy Prophet s.a.w, he did so in order to give security to Islam and the muslims from future destruction.

> Don't tell me some
>baseless knowledge that you know
>better, quoting some saying I've
>never heard of.

Just because you havent heard of some narrations that doesnt mean that such narrations dont exist, and whatever you cant REFUTE is that a baseless knowledge to you?

How arrogant you seem to be, be open minded and act only to please Allah not your naive shiekhs.

>every one you produce, I
>can happily produce Hadrat Ali's
>own sayings about Abu Bakr
>and Umar (R.A.).

O is that how you refute our arguments against you? havent you heard the words of Allah: "THE TRUTH STANDS CLEAR FROM ERROR" ?

You can provide as many narrations as you like for we knoW those narrations do not give the qualifications to your caliphs which are needed for the "Leadership in islam".

Now you have a "BIG PROBLEM" to solve, either admit that they took the leadership without having any right to it or believe that ALLAH favours the "LESS LEARNED AND THE LESS EXPERIENCED OVER THE MOST LEARNED AND THE MOST EXPERIENCED"

waiting for your funny answer:)

>In fact Hadrat Ali (R.A.) was
>a Sunni - in the
>literal sense. As you
>say in your own words,
>he followed Allah (S.W.T)'s commands
>under the teachings of the
>Prophet (PBUH) - a Sunni!!!

OK if Imam Ali was a Sunni because he followed the commands of Allah under the teachings of the Holy Prophet then who was Abu bakr and those companions who elected Abu bakr at Saqifa bani?

Surely the method of choosing a Caliph at SAQIFA BANI was NON-ISLAMIC.

The following are some reasons:

The Ansars/Helpers claimed that the leadership should be given to them due to their service for the sake of islam.

Similarly, the Migrants claimed that they were the most deserving of the leadership.

Different groups were advancing arguments on their own behalf at the Saqifah.

But at last Abu Bakr was chosen but election of Abu Bakr was so unexpected, hasty and careless that 'Umar remarked later:

"It was an accident that Abu Bakr became leader. No consultation or exchange of views took place. If anyone in future invites you to do the same again, kill him."

Ibn Hisham, al-Sirah, Vol. IV, p.308.
See also Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 8.817

The established facts shed light to the following points:

1)That the appointment of Abu bakr was not based upon Quran and Sunnah but mere choice of those in the majority. Thats why hasrat Umar says he will KILL THOSE WHO DO THE SAME AGAIN IN THE FUTURE...

Does not Allah says: "Those who do not judge according to what Allah reveals are dhalim/fasiq/disbelievers"?

(2)We know that the appointment of Abu bakr was prompt and sudden and not given the thought to it, is this the method of electing/nominating a Caliph of Islam?

Well that too goes against the teachings of Allah, because: "The Muslims are to organize their affairs on the basis of mutual consultation" (42:38)

(3)The choice of Abu Bakr (r.a) was not pleasing to all, Hasrat Umar said that Ali and Zubair and whoever was with them, and Ansar disagreed with them:

"..And no doubt after the death of the Prophet we were informed that the Ansar disagreed with us and gathered in the shed of Bani Sa'da. 'Ali and Zubair and whoever was with them, opposed us, while the emigrants gathered with Abu Bakr…" ( Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 8.817 )

Yes the seed of disunity was sown and was ready to grow into the wild tree whose fruit caused nothing but pain and destruction to the ummah of the Holy Prophet (S.A.W) as the Holy Quran predicts:

"Obey God and the Messenger, and never be drawn into dispute and disagreement, lest you be defeated and your power be scattered to the winds." (8:49)

Hasrat Abu Bakr was right when he correctly observed the following: "The swearing of allegiance to me was a mistake; may God protect us from its evil consequences. I myself am fearful of the harm it may cause." -> Ibn Abi'l-Hadid, Sharh, Vol. I, p.132.

The adoption of the Caliphal system in the fashion we have seen has nothing to do with Islam, in fact it contradicts Islam.

>The answer is there - so
>simple, if only you could
>face the simple truth.

Well its time you faced the truth also and admited that islam has a just social system, a punishment system, a econimic system and a JUST POLITICAL SYSTEM. And if the political system of Islam is Just then bear witness that the way Abu bakr became a Caliph was a non-islamic system, in Allah deen, Allah prefers those who are more fit for that position not those who cant find a solution to a problem and come run to others for guidnace.

Dont you know how many times Imam Ali correct the wrong decisions of the Caliphs before him?

Havent you heard of the very well knownsaying of hasrat Umar; "HAD IT NOT BEEN FOR UMAR WOULD HAVE BEEN PERISHED"


If you havent heard of all the sayings above then i suggest you keep your blind-belief to yourself or reserch further before you open your mouth.
>I have heard nonsense insults from
>Shia scholars about how Hadrat
>Ali (R.A.) was dragged into
>giving the Bayat to Hadrat
>Abu Bakr (R.A.). Rubbish,
>total rubbish -

Shows your ignorance about the truth and your deep arrogance.

These facts are recorded in your narration books as well as ours, give your mind a rest and try to refute us ina way prescribed by islam (Thats only if you know what the method is).

and a
>total insult to Hadrat Ali
>(R.A.), one of the greatest
>muslims of all time, who
>had such incredible strenght that
>he brought down big, big
>enemies of falsehood. How
>would he accept false Caliphs
>when he had spent the
>best part of his life
>getting rid of jahiliyah.

It's a shame really to think that after viewing the proofs of qualifications which shout that the right of leadership belongs to those who are most learned and worthy of it and instead of refuting these facts the opponents still question us that why did Imam Ali not fight for his right or why did he accpet the false caliphs? RATHER THAN QUESTIONING THE ACTIONS OF THOSE WHO TOOK THE RIGHT OF IMAM ALI a.s!

Imam Ali said: "A man is not blamed if he takes his time in obtaining what is his; the blame is on that who takes what does not belong to him." (Nahjul Balagha)

There are mutawatir evidences showing that the Holy Prophet chose Imam Ali for the leadership, to guide his ummah after him, at Ghadeer Al-Khum, so why question Imam Ali for accepting the Caliphs and not turning against them when the problem
exists with those who usurped his right?

Why not the questions like:" Who gave the right to Hadhrat Abu Bakr, Hadhrat Omar, Hadrat Uthmaan (ra.) to rule in place of Imam Ali,especially when the Holy Prophet (s.a.w) himself through the will of Allah designated Imam Ali for that position in
islam ?

Does Allah not say: "When Allah and His Messenger determine a matter, no choice remains therein for any believing woman or man. Whoever turns away from the command of God and His Messenger has openly chosen misguidance." (33:36)

But for the argument sake the answer for the above question is given as follows:

The Holy Prophet said to Ali (a.s): "The nation will turn treacherous to you; you shall live adhering to my faith and will be murdered for safeguarding it…"

(This is quoted by al-Hakim on page 122, Vol. 3, of his Al-Mustadrak where the author admits its authenticity. And Al-Thahbi quotes it in his own Talkhis, admitting its authenticity.)

Ibn Abbas has quoted the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him and his progeny, telling `Ali, "YOU WILL CERTAINLY ENCOUNTER A GREAT DEAL OF HARDSHIP AFTER ME" (al-Hakim on page 140, Vol. 3, of his Mustadrak, and al-Thahbi quotes him in his Talkhis al-Mustadrak. Both authors admit the authenticity of this hadith due to its endorsement by both Shaykhs. )

As we can see from the above narration's that the Holy Prophet was aware of what was to take place after his demise, then it becomes incumbent upon the Holy prophet to have had explained to Imam Ali what to do at those crucial times, and how to overcome the forbearing problems of that time.

There are many indications found within the Sunni sources that time to time the Holy prophet informed his companions about the unjust Rulers and how to act towards them.

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadiths: 5.688 and 7.458 Narrated Abu Bakra: The Prophet said:

"... Surely, you will meet your Lord, and He will ask you about your deeds. Beware! Do not become infidels after me by cutting the throats of one another. It is incumbent on those who are present to convey this message (of mine) to those who are absent…"

"There will be rulers over you, and you will either acknowledge or deny it. Those who acknowledge shall be considered innocent, while those who deny it will be saved from chastisement." They asked him (pbuh): "Are we not supposed to fight them?" Heanswered: "No, as long as they uphold their prayers. Sahih Muslim Arabic version: on page 122, Vol. 2, of his Sahih.

The Holy Prophet gives similar advice to others:

It has been narrated on the authority of Usaid b. Hudair that a man from the Ansar took the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) aside and said to him: Will you not appoint me governor as you have appointed so and so? He (the Messenger of Allah) said: You will surely come across preferential treatment after me, so you should be
patient until you meet me at the Cistern (Haud-i-Kauthar). (Sahih Muslim: Book 020, Number 4549)

It has been narrated on the authority of Ibn 'Abbas that the messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: One who found in his Amir something which he disliked should hold his patience, for one who separated from the main body of the Muslims even to the extent of a handspan and then he diedwould die the death of one belonging to the days of Jahiliyya. (Sahih Muslim: Book 020, Number 4559)

For many of the reasons like above Imam Ali practised patience and acting upon these sacred commandments and upon others whereby they were bound. Imam Ali and saw that safeguarding the unity of the nation, and keeping it intact was better than the opposite, Imam Ali and the rest of the Ahl Al Bayt abided by the command of these texts while dealing with those who were controlling the affairs of the Muslims. While being aware of the fact that they themselves were more worthy of being in their shoes, they stayed silent over their right, hoping they might be able one day to lead them to the Right Path. The ascension of those individuals to power was more painful to them than the blows of sharp swords, yet they tolerated it only to fulfil the covenant, discharge the commitment, and carry out their duties as far as the Shari`a is concerned, favouring - while opposing such rulers - to prefer what is most important over what is more important. For this reason, the Commander of the Faithful (as) tried his best to provide counsel to all three caliphs, exerting himself in providing them with advice.

Secondly Imam Ali had more threats to deal with, the Muslims were being surrounded by the Hypocrites, the Romans, the Kaisers and others were waiting in anticipation, to take revenge from the Muslims and to destroy the faith which was growing rapidly fast, how could they stay away when their elders and young ones were killed under the banner of ISLAM in self defence? They were also thirsty for rule and revenge for that it wouldn't take courage for they knew the Muslims would risk their lives to save the Deen of Allah, hence they needed to plan and to conspire for there was no other way to bring down the mighty force of the Muslims. Imam Ali while being aware of that kept silence for the sake of unity and to prevent the Muslims from destruction, for he knew what the consequences would be, for causing disunity amongst the Muslims in the near future. Staying quite for the sake of others lives and unity is not something new Hadhart Haroon a.s did the same to prevent division amongst the children of Israel. The Following ayah says it all:

(Moses) said: "O' Aaron! what kept you back when you saw them going wrong?"... (Aaron said "...Truly I feared you would say 'You caused a division among the Children of Israel and you did not respect my word!'" (Quran 202-94).

Yes for the sake of unity Imam Ali refrained from demanding the caliphate for himself and overlooking certain matters, knowing that demanding the caliphate under such circumstances would endanger the nation and jeopardize the safety of the faith; so, he opted to refrain just in preference of the interest of Islam and that of the common welfare, of the good of the future to that of the present.

He, therefore, remained at home, refusing to give his allegiance till he was forced to leave, just to silently enforce his own right, silently defying those who forsook him. Had he rushed to give his allegiance, he would have had neither argument nor pretext, but he, by doing so, safeguarded both religion and his own right to rule the believers, thus proving the originality of his mind, his overwhelming clemency, his patience and preference of the public interest to that of his own.

According to ( Sahih Al Bukhari 5.546), Imam Ali paid baya after 6 Months that is when the attitude of the people changed towards him, but we know that Imam Ali opposed Abu Bakr as Hadhrad Umar confessed : Al-Bukhari narrated:

Umar said: "And no doubt after the death of the Prophet we were informed that the Ansar disagreed with us and gathered in the shed of Bani Sa'da. 'Ali and Zubair and whoever was with them, opposed us, while the emigrants gathered with Abu Bakr."

Sunni Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English, v8, Tradition #817

But according to others :".. When Umar came to the door of the house of Fatimah, he said: "By Allah, I shall burn down (the house) over you unless you come out and give the oath of allegiance (to Abu Bakr)."

Sunni References:
- History of Tabari (Arabic), v1, pp 1118-1120
- History of Ibn Athir, v2, p325
- al-Isti'ab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, v3, p975
- Tarikh al-Kulafa, by Ibn Qutaybah, v1, p20
- al-Imamah wal-Siyasah, by Ibn Qutaybah, v1, pp 19-20

The Holy Prophet said: "Baya by force is no Baya"

Can someone blame Imam Ali for delaying his right?

Imam Ali said: "A man is not blamed if he takes his time in obtaining what is his; the blame is on that who takes what does not belong to him." (Nahjul Balagha)


>You quote mis-interperated sayings, I quote
>historical fact. away kid! bang! bang! bang!

Regarding some
>of the Companions that you
>insult. Do you know
>that it was the companions
>that dreamt the Adhan, and
>this was then confirmed by
>the Prophet. The Adhan,
>some of the most beautiful
>words in this world which
>bring all Muslims (Shia and
>Sunni) to prayer and you
>claim that these very people
>who Allah gave the dream
>of the Adhan immediately went
>astray. How ridiculous is
>your accusation - think and
>wonder what you will say
>to Allah about these false
>accusations on the Day of

lol..what has adhaan to do with it? just because they dreamt of adhaan this makes all the companions righteous does it?

what will you say to Allah for remaining ignorant about the sura munafiqeen on the day of judgement?

>I am happy to get into
>a Hadith exchange with Shia's
>to demonstrate the points, but
>without sincerity that tends to
>lead nowhere.

Its does lead to some where only if the my oppenents are sincere and open minded.

I too like you was a sunni and alhamdolillah iam now a X sunni.
>I make Du'a that Shia's can
>come to terms with their
>own falsehood. I have
>seen the First Kalimah doctered
>in Shia households, by adding
>reference to Ali (R.A.) after
>the words La-illah-hah-illalah-Mohmanned-rasulullah.

kalimah is only a testimony, and we bear witness that: There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger, and Ali is the wali of Allah and the wasi of rasoolullah and that the heaven is true, hell is true, resurrection is true..thats just a testimony theres no big deal about it..

The Holy Prophet himself used to add truefatcs with the Shahadah, see sahih muslims in the book of imaan where he added isa a.s and his beloved mother and the shahada.

>will these Shia's say to
>Allah on the Day of
>Judgement about playing with Allah's

Lol...We will say O Allah we only bore witness to the facts and so did your Messenger, hence we followed him so forgive us your are the most beneficient the most merciful.
>End the debate, it is pointless.

pointless with you yes..for your have a closed mind, blind belief for you only have your inherited beliefs and arrogance flows down from you.

But concern was to give you an answer so that you wont have an escuse on the day of Judgement, so what will you say to Allah?

> Fear Allah and pray
>for his mercy so we
>may all enter Paradise.

The Imams of Ahl AL bayt have said, that those who deny their right, their deeds are not accepted by Allah,, just like Allah says: "Obey Allah and His Messenger and do not nullify your deeds"

There are many tradtions in sunni books which are to the same effect and the following is one of the examples:

The Holy Prophet said: "My example of my Ahl AL bayt is like the example of Noah's Ark, whosoever got on was saved and whosoever stayed behind was lost and drowned"

Do you get it?

wa alaikum salaam




وَنَجَّيْنَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَكَانُوا يَتَّقُونَ {41:18}

But We delivered those who believed and practised righteousness


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